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Scene node-graph

Scene node-graph

Unread postby bjoern » Wed May 23, 2018 9:01 am

Thhis might kick of a software-believe war..., but hear me out

I always dropped software in the past pretty quickly when it did not have a node-graph to manage the the scene. I loved they way Katana worked (in theory) but its just buggy as hell and very slow. Plus I refuse to use a software for my self when its so ridiculously overpriced.
Clarisse was the first tool for me where I did not miss the node-graph (not talking material editor here).
But I have to say that you are forced to keep your scenes simple from an organizational standpoint to not loose track of what is going on. With complex I mean allot of nested elements and lot's of context within context and mostly rule-based setups.
If you open up a clarisse scene that is not yours it is very hard to figure out how its setup. And not everything is always based on templates. In a node-graph, everything is right there and you can document it with backdrops and sticky-notes etc.

So the point I'm trying to make is: Clarisse without a node-graph is not as powerful as it could be. And if it had a nodegraph you are not necessarily forced to use it. You could work the regular way. I would use it everyday, especially for the documentation possibility's. And I'm sure some religious katana users would pretty quickly assimilate if clarisse get's a nodegraph for scene organization.
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby bjoern » Wed May 23, 2018 9:06 am

let me add to that... I think here is really no case one can make against a node-graph (usability wise), If you are not forced to use it.
It cannot make a tool worse, it only improves it and adds a another tool to the belt. A very powerful one
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby mdkai » Wed May 23, 2018 10:38 am

Hey Bjoern

i think in general most people prefer nodes over stack based workflow (and ill do as well) and you are right that they can be very helpful if there is a linear approach to the required result. There can also be branches and, if well documented, can be easily read and understood when given to another artist.

However this is always an artists responsibility and if you have some rather less careful working artist or the time is short thing get also very messy with node based views .. many years ago one comper was nicknamed "spiderman" for a reason ;)

My problem would be how to approach the multi-context way clarisse is using in a linear node graph way .. i think it would really help to check dependencies of objects though.
It would be challenging to see a good solution that would show a nodegaph based representation of a scene.
Pretty sure though that some of the smart people of Isotropix would at some point evaluate such a software design .. maybe it is already structured like this..

With Alembic 1.7 and its mesh layer support, this might be even more relevant.
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby dboude » Wed May 23, 2018 10:45 am

Santa Claus is coming ...
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby bjoern » Wed May 23, 2018 1:03 pm

dboude wrote:Santa Claus is coming ...

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: YEEEEESSSSS!!!
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby bjoern » Wed May 23, 2018 1:07 pm

I think your response demian... it would scare the crap out of the Katana team, buahahha :D
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby sam » Wed May 23, 2018 3:58 pm

Yes but does Santa Claus exist? That is the question :D

And by the way this is not what I call a feature request. This is more a software request so the thread is off topic I guess
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby bjoern » Thu May 24, 2018 3:37 pm

I think that is debatable. From user perspective its just a feature. I don't think anybody thought of 3Dsmax as new software when the Material editor to shader node-graph expansion happend ;-)
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby mdkai » Thu May 24, 2018 5:13 pm

Well it is easy for a user to wish for almost anything they would like to see, but knowledge of software architecture will quickly shed some light (pun intended) into how much of an effort some ideas are. Pretty sure some ideas of say Metropolis Light Transport, Bidirectional Path tracing or some other things can cost quite some time to implement, if ever since the whole design of a codebase could require a rehaul...

Thats why Autodesk is buying tech and simply add it instead of designing it WITH the application flow in mind. It is a too old and complex codebase to rehaul, and therefore not many steps involve the bugfix of years old issues...

Would be interesting to see how long development and planning was already done prior to the "inofficial" announcement.. ;)

Fun thing is, for 3dsmax some smart people (ephere) already had a very complex node based workaround running (called Zookeeper) and it worked pretty well, same guys provided the current outliner style in Max.
They managed to hack this whole thing on top of the existing API in Max (which is quite .. uhm debateable by todays standards .. )
So some solutions can be done even from outside the sourcecode access.
Dneg created some nice things on their own for Clarisse .. shame they do not share much on Github .. :)
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Re: Scene node-graph

Unread postby sam » Fri May 25, 2018 10:22 am

mdkai wrote:Would be interesting to see how long development and planning was already done prior to the "inofficial" announcement.. ;)

I don't know what you are talking about.
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