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Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby esmith » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:56 pm

We have a curvature node with which you can play with the edges of objects as a displacement and as a shader mask:
Edges.jpg


Applied just as a mask between 2 shaders:
edges_shader.jpg


Applied also as a displacement to the entire object, which is just to show how it can add a bevel to edges:
edges_displaced.jpg


You could and should break this up with some noise and such to get a more subtle and realistic effect. But make sure to check these types of nodes out, they can produce many effects.
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby Preludian » Tue May 01, 2018 12:12 am

Hi,

I tried recreating what you did, but somehow I get no displacement. I can even disable the displacement node or the vector_to_euler_node and nothing happens in the rendering. Could you please upload your scene or material settings? I can the second material displayed on the edges though, just no displacement as bevel fake thing.

I would like to see what the results are compared to a true bevel shader. What are the pros and cons.

Cheers
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby esmith » Tue May 01, 2018 6:43 pm

Here is the project above zipped up.
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DisplacedEdges_Curvature.zip
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby ambassador1 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:02 pm

Did you simply mean a round edge shader/feature, that does not require displacement. e.g. as shown here down near "Round Edge Width"

http://modo.docs.thefoundry.co.uk/modo/ ... erial.html
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby Preludian » Tue May 01, 2018 11:31 pm

@esmith, thanks for the project, but I don't get it. It works perfectly with your object, with mine, a simple soccerball extruded where the black parts are, the displacement does nothing. It doesn't even re-render when I change the Front Value or even deactivate it. The look is there, but without displacement. I'll attach my object, maybe you could have a look or explain me the setup or what the 'trick' is.

SoccerBall_Test01.zip
Soccerball as alembic
(7.28 KiB) Downloaded 115 times


But then again, a simple and easy to use whatsoever node/checkerbox to round the edges with a defined radius would be just fine ;) Like most of the other render-engines- and even Blender in the new to come 2.8, this would awesome.

@ambassador: Exactly, this is getting more or less standard in every engine I know. And wow, these are some cool documentation pages. :O
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby esmith » Wed May 02, 2018 7:21 pm

I'll take a look and see if I can get it to work with your object.

It would be nice to have every feature as a simple button, and with scripting I'm sure it's possible to make it more automatic. Obviously we are a pretty new software, unlike Blender that is 20 years old. We will never be feature complete, because features will be added all the time. My "iFX" answer is that these tricks are just tricks, and using more polygons would be better in Clarisse iFX. Some of our clients actually prefer now to model everything, to totally avoid UVs at all costs, as an example. Just model your bevels :-)

But also, we try to provide you with a bunch of tools to make your own things. Tools like Curvature and the Occlusion node, scopes. Maybe you can use these tools to create a "bevel" tool for yourself. However they are much more powerful than that, free and unbound of a "bevel" node.

I've used a bevel "node" before, as a render time operation in Renderman, RiBits. In time all the features that matter the most to the most customers always rise to the top. I'm a fan of this type of object modifier, and the render time addition of them. Perhaps it would be some subpixel filter, I'm not an engineer. But it's basically a custom displacement node at he end of the day.
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby Preludian » Wed May 02, 2018 8:05 pm

Thanks a bunch for taking a look. Thing is, I actually like the idea of using a displacement (only for Clarisse as master polygon cruncher, elsewhere not possible) as this allows bevel look at every camera position and even in mirrors. I could of course model the bevel, but this is insane to do in most software. In Houdini on the other hand, a wonderful piece of software I am using now since a few weeks only, this is only a node away (and some grouping of edges , too ;) ). In Rhino 3D this would be tedious to maybe later change a bevel.

So I really would like to try your solution, too. But I don't understand why the displacement node has a dramatic change with the camera and no change at all with my object. What am I doing wrong? That's all. If I can get it to work with any of my objects I can better see if this is a viable solution for my ArchViz scenes.

Of course! I wouldn't mind at all to have a simple and easy solution like the bevel shader, I mean, in most of the times it's more than enough to fake the look. And I surely understand that Clarisse cannot add every wish user have immediately (Blender needed 20 years for that ;))

My wish list is that, a wish list, features I would love Clarisse to have added better sooner than later. Like portal lights and IES, see, sometimes wishes come true :)

The best thing would of course (another wish) is the solution you mentioned at the end, an easy to use Clarisse-way true bevel.

Until then... :)
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby esmith » Thu May 03, 2018 9:41 pm

Here it is hooked up to the ABC you provided, seems to work like I'd think for that particular object.
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SoccerBall_Test01.zip
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby Preludian » Fri May 04, 2018 12:23 pm

Gnaaaaahh, all this trouble, because I didn't see that you had a displacement added into the displacement slot, too :oops:
This tutorial opened my eyes for the obvious https://www.isotropix.com/learn/tutorials/getting-started-with-displacement. :oops: again
This and the very important Displacement Adaptive Span Count which may not be too low and shouldn't be too high as it serves nothing but increases rendering time.

But the result is more of chamfer than a rounded edge for cubic objects, so ok to be used with farther away objects only.
bevelfake.jpg
bevelwithdisplacement


But nevertheless, in the mean time it's an valid option, if modeled bevels are not an option and until a more flexible and faster solution is implemented.
That's how easy it is done is the new Rhino 6 eg. (only meant as inspiration and to show how other engines handle the bevel problem)
rhino_shade_bevel.jpg
Rhino 6 bevel option


But anyhow, thank you a lot for your patience and for adding a new option how to do things.
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Re: Settings to render interiors with the new PBR system

Unread postby vandam » Fri May 04, 2018 2:12 pm

Features like render-time bevel that comes in handy in archViz when you download some crappy models from the internet and you do not have time to retopo them in order to properly bevel the edges. Most VFX studios do not download crappy models and even if they do they would fix them. The assumption is that you import ready to render models into Clarisse, you want to have them 100% done. I, for one, like this approach. As a purist - I would much rather have pure geo with baked bevels imported rather than simple cube with some bumps applied to it. And the greatest thing is - in Clarisse, nobody gives a crap about that. In game engine people might be like - "Dude, what the hell, why would you add those extra polys? We can't afford them extra 20 polys!". Transition to Clarisse allowed me to bevel the hell out of anything I want and I do not even give a second thought over if this is overkill or not :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Bevel via displacement is a no-go, imagine applying that to 300 billion polys :D
I guess feature like that would be welcome for archViz if it does not heavily impact render timezzzz. For VFX - if it was needed I guess DNeg would have already written it :mrgreen:


PS. funny that in 3ds bevel is called chamfer. I guess that after MaterialX and USD the industry should normalize the terms we use so there's no confusion xD JK :lol:
Last edited by vandam on Fri May 04, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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